Here is a fabled Patreon update... Mostly stuff you already know if you're following me, but also a picture you might enjoy seeing

patreon.com/posts/37181838

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@Gargron woah e2e. I wanted to experiment with adding it to Tusky for a long time.
Signal protocol then, eh?

@charlag Yes! Keep an eye out on the PR:

github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/

I'll be updating the description with more info as I flesh things out

@Gargron @charlag is this going to kill existing DMs, be a progressive enhancement, or standalone alongside? i think there's some value in unencrypted direct posts (as forward-secrecy conflicts with having a consistent message archive, it will always be a "pick one" situation...)

@trwnh @charlag Won't be able to phase out old DMs for a long time but the long-term plan for them is to be phased out

They don't match people's expectation on how DM conversations should work, they don't match people's expectations on privacy, they're a liability in terms of database performance, potential risk vector in the code, and legal responsibility

@Gargron @charlag hm. i'd say my expectations are that dms should work like twitter / instagram / any other website... i understand some people want full e2ee everywhere but a lot of people also *don't* want that.

the main thing i'm concerned about though is that direct posts are a legitimately good and useful feature in the middle of threads, and leaving a direct reply within a specific context is one of the killer features of fedi. it's why the current "conversations" are so awkward...

@Gargron @charlag possibly unpopular opinion but the old direct timeline api was more useful than the conversations api for that reason

i do, however, see a way forward for Message to become a new entity that is separate from Status, and for the Conversation entity to use Message instead

@trwnh @Gargron @charlag Scope limited posts (sending regular posts *only* to a named user or group of users) are awesome and useful, but pretending they are DMs is deceptive and wrong. I'm glad to see real DMs coming, but not so happy to hear that SLMs are going away entirely.

@lnxw37a2 @charlag @trwnh They're not, no. Followers-only posts as well as posts addressed to specific people (circles/aspects) are not going anywhere.

@Gargron @lnxw37a2 @charlag as long as posts addressed to one person remain, i'm not too concerned

i just *also* think that it's a mistake to have treated them as special and separate in the first place. they're statuses within a tree context, not messages within a flat context.

@trwnh @Gargron @lnxw37a2 I feel like "Message" should be a separate Object too bur how do you explain to users difference between "this note has these recipients" and "this is a DM"

@charlag @Gargron @lnxw37a2 killing /api/v1/conversations and the ui around it, for starters

ui-wise the presence of mentions should be the giveaway. statuses have mentions prominently attached (at least when authored by mastodon). there's definitely a ux gap for incoming statuses from other softwares, but the other giveaway is that you're in a tree-like context as opposed to a flat one. this can be emphasized by using bubbles or chatlog style

@lukas @charlag If your problem is with the Signal company / Moxie, we're not actually going to use libsignal as released by them, we're going to use Olm which is a re-implementation by the Matrix folks

@Gargron@mastodon.social @charlag@birb.site

i expirienced Signal as unreliable, might be different to others but if i get a message, i dont even get notifications

and mostly messages just get lost
(>40 people reported the same in the company)

@lukas @charlag Signal as in the encryption scheme (double ratchet, previously also called Axolotl). It doesn't have anything to do with the mobile app Signal!

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