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Ffs, if you're still searching through Google - please don't. There are DuckDuckGo, Ecosia, Startpage, SearX and in almost all cases it's enough. If you really can't find something, switching to Google search is one "!g" away in DuckDuckGo.

@dpwiz they exercise their power do shape the internet the way they want.
Forcing website owners to have Google Analytics to rank well in search? Done.
Forcing publishers to use AMP to appear in search? Done.
Using their huge advertising machine to promote The browser which ignores standards ad it pleases? Done.
Huge surveillance machine? Done.
Developing military drones? Done.

@charlag Do you imply that switching to alternative search pages is a most effective policy to prevent them from developing military drones?

@dpwiz @clacke all if them you can.
I think it's very, very effective to hit their most powerful tool and revenue stream. If at least geeks would stop using google and Gmail, it would be huge. If some normies would, they would be half dead.
Some day Yahoo seemed invincible.

@dpwiz @clacke if you look for the reasons to not do a moral choice, then be honest with yourself that you won't care to fight

@charlag @clacke I like to separate warm fuzzy feelings I get from some actions from achieving the goal.

@charlag @clacke I may do a moonwalk around the Red Square, I do not expect it would be helpful. Should I still do it? How to draw the line between "not the most effective" and "waste of effort"?

@dpwiz @clacke I think if you do moonwalk around Red Square it would be a nice protest btw. Beware handcuffs tho.

But that's different. We need to tell people to not use google: to protect themselves from surveillance and to not feed the beast.
Power of Google comes from scale. We need to continue developing and offering privacy conscious alternatives otherwise people will shrug and "well there's no other email, is there?". And they might just not know about it.

@charlag @clacke
I'm certain that my privacy interests are aligned with Google needs for exclusivity on the raw data. The incentives are laid out in such way that it doesn't make sense for them to "sell their users".

I believe by strangling Google we'd do ourselves a disservice and simply inviting Chinese giants to steward the world in the direction of their chosing. And you'll get even less privacy and more imposed "standards", simply by having a different culture.

@dpwiz @charlag "It's either Google or China" must be the hottest take of the month.

@clacke @dpwiz yes, now we've gone from "it won't do anything" to "if we don't support Nazis then Commies will come for your wife!" (figuratively speaking)

@charlag @clacke Yeah. As much as I hate the alienating "us versus them" rhetoric those are the stated goals and a race to AI is on. Whoever decides to stay behind would become an insignificant backwater.

When doing the "us vs Google" thing, you're going to alienate engineers who still have influence on inside. They *did* force the abandoning of military contracts. They at least care about strategic safety, unlike others, who need to half-ass everything to get to speed.

@dpwiz @clacke none of the alternative I proposed are from China or have "sold everything to get up speed". Wtf you're talking about.

@charlag @clacke I'm talking about disempowering Google you propose by suggesting switching over to alternatives. Even if the means are effective, the ends seem counterproductive in the long run.

@dpwiz @clacke I still don't see why diversity of private providers is bad. Thus blind faith in Google's best intentions already costs us too much.

@charlag @dpwiz Big Google just wants to help you, but you need to let him into your heart, otherwise he is powerless to protect you from the bad guys.

@clacke @charlag Your own personal Google
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who's there 😅

@charlag @clacke I like the diversity and totally support having an option to switch over to (I actually did set up DDG after your post). I just don't buy the "google is bad m'kay" part.

@dpwiz @clacke don't know what they need to do at this point to seem even worse. Start taking newborns?

@amiloradovsky @charlag @clacke I'd love to adopt ecumenism, but the other parishes seem even more sinful, depraved or powerless.

@amiloradovsky @charlag @clacke I don't see it as feasible at the moment. I doubt *either* of the extremes is feasible and we need to seek more saner alternatives.

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@clacke @charlag You know, it kinda makes sense.

Unlike other big tech Google is, allegedly, is an AI-first company. The others are, mostly, "money-first" (or "privacy-first", for that matter). Chinese look "money-first" too, but The Party is very technocratic and very interested in governance efficiency AI-based solutions bring. And they go "look, have all the money you want, but we require you to R&D the hell out of AI and close the technology gap whatever it takes".

fhi.ox.ac.uk/deciphering-china

@charlag Just like Nike went out of business when people stopped buying their shoes in protest of sweatshop labor. Oh wait.

@dpwiz @charlag Low-effort, possibly somewhat effective things are what we're talking about, not ineffective things.

Degooglifying your life and encouraging others to do so is all you can do as an individual, the rest is up to blunt instruments like representative democracy.

@charlag How about qwant.com (France), metager.de (Germany), or yandex.com (Russia)

So much choice, and nobody knows or cares. (The same for operating systems.)

@akf Yandex is absolutely the same survelliance machine as Google, just on a smaller scale (and they don't hesitate to work with FSB).
I don't trust too much looking at the Ghostery: "we'll replace unethical tracking with a little bit more ethical one!"
I don't know much about metager

@charlag Yandex: okay, they store data. But there are people who care less about the Russians than about being spied upon by Americans. Depends upon who you are and where you live.

@akf why choose being spied by others rather than not being spied by?

@charlag Who knows who is really trustworthy. They can tell you anything. DuckDuckGo is from USA. So AFAIK they are required by law to cooperate with their agencies on request, and may not talk about it (NSL).

@charlag MetaGer.de also promises to store nothing. But it's a meta-search-engine without an own index.

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