@alexl BTW all chats and calls on #Wire are #E2E by default, and they do not use roll-your-own crypto

@tao

@alexl @strypey except it's not encrypted by default (so almost never)

@charlag but you can start a secret chat (e2e encrypted) with 200+ millions of users. Plus calls are always e2e encryped (of course).

@alexl I'm from Russia and I used Telegram a lot because of the network effect, it's very popular here. I used it like 3 times during 4 years or so to send passwords and such.
E2E is possible and should be on by default, like in Signal, Wire and soon Matrix. You shouldn't have to opt into anything.
And let me ask you about Telegram's business model.

@charlag with e2e encryption enabled by default Telegram wouldn't had been able to deliver an user experience that can compete with proprietary services because most feature depends on its cloud-based model. Also Telegram doesn't sell user data or use them in any way.

Improving secret chats would be welcome of course.

Telegram doesn't have a business model.

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@alexl well, WhatsApp and Wire are both commercial products and they very much deliver it with e2e.
We don't know what it shares or sells because it's not e2e nor a public entity.

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@charlag Whatsapp doesn't have e2e encryption, it claims so, but without the source code of the clients we can't know.

And Whatsapp is a service by Facebook. Its business model is collecting users data. If Whatsapp really has e2e encryption what it collects are metadata, because I doubt Facebook does beneficence.

@alexl I don't trust them either. I just provided some examples. "Experiences" is a very poor excuse for security and privacy (some Russian opposition politicians been in trouble because police hijacked cellular and logged into their accounts. Shouldn't have happened.)

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